An Affair with an older married lady... and the aftermath...

[junior_cannibal]

Originally Posted by Asakura

that pretty much describes her character, from the story so far.

Ya, yet pretend to want Mark to be happy.
Life is too short to waste time on r/s like that. As for those who fancy open r/s, no need to get married, then no string and have many multiple partners. Marriage only makes divorce complicated and messy.
As I mentioned quite some time ago, Jasmine said she allows Mark to have multiple partners till her divorce is completed, she just short of saying she will do the same, not only men, lesbian sex included, plus unknown others she can go on trips with.

[kensei31]

Grab Shirlynn before it's too late.

[kpk80]

I think let's not jump to conclusion and let Mark哥 reveal the surprise.

Camping patienly for next update.

[84gunner]

Originally Posted by junior_cannibal

while the two of them share literally everything, yet she can go Thailand without even letting Mark knows who's the companion and when she will return. Typical Singapore girls, most of them expect their men to revolve around them as though they are the sun. In short, inconsiderate and self centered.

They just want everything for themselves, win in everything, and have double-standards (she can do something, but don't allow other people to do).

[84gunner]

Originally Posted by junior_cannibal

Ya, yet pretend to want Mark to be happy.
Life is too short to waste time on r/s like that. As for those who fancy open r/s, no need to get married, then no string and have many multiple partners. Marriage only makes divorce complicated and messy.
As I mentioned quite some time ago, Jasmine said she allows Mark to have multiple partners till her divorce is completed, she just short of saying she will do the same, not only men, lesbian sex included, plus unknown others she can go on trips with.

Some women's words cannot be trusted.

Example, my ex-wife, she often says I'm head of the house-hold, she'll follow my decisions. Then during some renovation / repair, if my decision is different from her opinion or what she likes, then she'll find faults & throw her temper. Then when I explain the technical reasons to her, she'll say, "U are a man, u know the technical stuffs, I'm a lady, I don't know the technical stuffs".

On 1 side, tell u she'll follow yr decisions. But on the other side, when yr decision is different from her opinion or what she likes, then she find faults & throw temper. In that case, why go through the big circle of thinking, organising, communicating with the relevant parties, then only to totally change it?

Waste time & efforts. As far as I'm concerned, brain-juice / energy is also precious resource & efforts. Instead of go such a big round, why can't just be upfront about her opinion of what she likes / wants? When explain to her, not interested to listen.

I observed, often, at the point in time, they are not sure yet, or just simply use this as a strategy / method to "reserve" their rights (留后路) or change decision later.

[sexcision]

Originally Posted by kpk80

I think let's not jump to conclusion and let Mark哥 reveal the surprise.

Camping patienly for next update.

But jumping to conclusion is what makes discussion here lively. If not all just say camping here, support, pls continue. How boring can the thread get. I'm sure Mark will want to read all these comments lol.

[junior_cannibal]

Originally Posted by 84gunner

They just want everything for themselves, win in everything, and have double-standards (she can do something, but don't allow other people to do).

Absolutely right. For then to admit they are wrong, or to say the word sorry is harder than ask them to eat shit.
We are all human, to make mistakes is not uncommon. When we tell them is not to make them feel small or useless. It's usually just wanting to point out, avoid making them and all can just move on. However, they will think otherwise.
Enough said, most women are similar. Changing gf or spouse won't solve the issue.
Cest la vie.

[junebaby]

Originally Posted by kpk80

I think let's not jump to conclusion and let Mark哥 reveal the surprise.

Camping patienly for next update.

Originally Posted by sexcision

But jumping to conclusion is what makes discussion here lively. If not all just say camping here, support, pls continue. How boring can the thread get. I'm sure Mark will want to read all these comments lol.

I also jumped to conclusions when I was talking with him last night. But I also shared my opinion.

They just need to be more open and communicate properly.

[talismann]

Mark should be used to being jumped on by now.

[Shrouded]

I wasn't entirely sure why I texted June to meet. I could have talked to Shirlyn, or Kate, or Nat and even Crystal. Hell, I could have just gone to bang Rebecca if I was horny since she kept offering herself to me.

But somehow, I felt more at ease wanting to talk to someone who didn't already know Jasmine, and didn't want to sleep with me. June fit the bill pretty nicely.

I guess she was pretty bored as well, being Monday and all, for as I headed down to the Starbucks, she was already there, and had ordered a mocha frappe for me, and a green tea latte for herself.

J: So what's up?

Me: Ah. Nothing much really. Just wanted someone to talk to.

J: I gave you my telegram right? You could have just texted me.

Me: Yeah.

J: You wanted to ogle at me right?

This time around, she was rather modestly dressed, in a turtleneck sort of short sleeved blouse? And ¾ pants. I wondered what kind of job she was really doing, since her attire didn't seem very office-like today.

Me: You're not that attractive to me you know. Distracting body parts, but not that attractive.

J: Haha! At least you're honest.

Me: I'm guessing you work around here? Since you're willing to come over.

J: I'm one stop away. You're lucky you're near the MRT. Otherwise we'd be meeting at my convenience.

Me: And where might that be?

J: Near my office? I'm not that near to the MRT though.

Me: I see.

J: So what's up?

Me: Well, Jasmine went overseas.

J: And so?

Me: Two people thought I'd be going with her.

J: I fail to see the point.

Me: It's a surprise to me too.

J: And?

Me: I don't know if she went alone, or with someone.

J: You know what's funny?

Me: What?

J: After the talk that day with Nat and Darren, I figured you'd realize that communication is very important. Honesty. No secrets. Tell each other everything.

Me: I tell her everything.

J: And she doesn't right? It's irritating right? I face the same issue with my husband. He just accepts what I tell him without a complaint. I could be out fucking my FWB now and every single day and he won't tell me to stop.

Me: And how does that make you feel?

J: I have no clue. But at least now I'm open with him. Hopefully he'll be open with me too.

Me: What if he's fucking someone else?

J: Then he should tell me. At least then we both have an understanding.

Me: Aren't you just glad he accepts whatever you're doing?

J: Of course I am.

Me: Then I guess she's the same as him.

J: Maybe. But he's not the one telling me to fuck all my friends. Or to take someone's virginity. And of course, we're already married and moving towards a more open marriage. You don't even know where you're headed.

Me: True.

J: So why didn't you ask her?

Me: If she wanted to tell me where or who she's going with she would have.

J: You don't know that. Even if you asked, she may not have said. Is it bothering you?

Me: Slightly. We had sex everyday for the entire week. So I was expecting to spend the weekend with her.

J: You had sex daily? Well done. All I had was a threesome. Twice.

Me: Isn't that good enough for you?

J: Well… I was hoping my FWB would still meet up with me, then I'd get fucked by my husband when I'm home.

Me: I thought your sex drive wasn't that high.

J: It's not. But I'm getting good sex. So nothing wrong with getting more.

Me: Right.

J: Although I still haven't gotten my wish for double penetration.

Me: Why not?

J: Guess they're really too scared to try. They aren't exactly that small, and it's my virgin hole.

Me: Just relax and use lots of lube. Or try something smaller.

J: Hahaha. Like what?

Me: Toys maybe?

J: Nah. I want to feel a cock inside me. Two cocks. I can't imagine what it must be like.

Me: Try with a cock and a toy first?

J: Will need to see who's willing to try first. Husband or FWB.

Me: Maybe just try with a toy. Haha.

J: I really prefer cocks. Anyway, what are you so worried about Jasmine anyway? Are you afraid she's seeing someone else?

Me: A little?

J: Even if she is, so what? You don't own her, she doesn't own you. You aren't married. You didn't clearly define your relationship. All you have going on is a promise of marriage. It hasn't happened yet, so why be so hard on yourself? Just do what you want to do within reason, then go back to her at the end of the day.

Me: That's what you're doing.

J: That's not my point. My point is, just live your life how you want to live it. So she's fucking someone else, you go fuck someone else too. You don't know who it is? Then fuck someone she doesn't know about.

Me: And that goes against the concept of openness right?

J: Probably. But she chose not to be fully open right?

Me: I guess.

J: So what's stopping you?

Me: What's stopping your husband?

J: This isn't about him.

Me: Well, I guess I wanna be loyal to her?

J: Your sense of loyalty doesn't seem right. If she's fucking someone else and not telling you, how's that being loyal to you?

Me: Maybe she'll tell me eventually?

J: You wrote that you were upset when you caught her fucking Darren behind your back.

Me: Sort of.

J: Maybe that's why she feels she can't tell you? Not yet anyway. Maybe she's fucking Darren right now?

Me: Nah. He was surprised that she went overseas too.

J: What about the lesbian girl?

Me: She didn't even know she's going overseas.

J: So let's just assume she is fucking someone else. It'd have to be someone she knows. I don't think she's the kind that would randomly go on sex holidays with any guy she just met right?

Me: I really don't know.

J: So that leaves Jason, and EoS.

Me: She doesn't really like Jason. She was curious about EoS, but…

J: Ya. This EoS guy, so many girls after him even though he's married. I went to read his stories too. It's very interesting.

Me: I don't think she's with him.

J: Did you even ask? I remember the last time Jasmine went missing you practically called the whole world trying to find her. Why not now?

Me: Maybe I've accepted it?

J: Accepted what? That she'll randomly go missing, probably fuck other guys behind your back?

Me: Go missing. I don't think she's fucking someone behind my back. She'd tell me first.

J: You aren't even sure about that.

Me: Yeah. I'm not. But I'm going to give her space. Respect her privacy.

J: Hypothetically, if we were to have sex tonight, would you tell her?

Me: Probably not.

J: Why not?

Me: She might get upset?

J: And you won't be if she's fucking someone else?

Me: I would.

J: Then why are you the one giving in?

Me: Because I know we won't be fucking. Hypothetically or not.

J: Well, you're right there. Not my desired size. Haha.

Me: Maybe it's small enough for other things? Haha.

J: That's a very lame way to say you want to fuck my ass.

Me: But I didn't say it.

J: Don't be lame. Be more firm. Direct.

Me: But I don't want to. I'm just trolling you.

J: Urgh. Fine. Let's change topic. What's good to eat around here? I heard there's some famous noodles at the hawker centre?

Me: Famous noodles?

J: Noodle story or something?

Me: Ah. They actually opened an outlet at the MRT.

J: Oh? Are you hungry?

Me: Not really. I'm getting full from the coffee.

J: Ah. Do you wanna eat anyway? My treat. For giving me new insights to my relationship.

Me: Erm. Sure. In a while I guess?

We continued chatting while I waited to get hungry. Chatting with June was really refreshing. She did not have any preconceived ideas about Jasmine and most importantly, she didn't want to sleep with me. If I had met Rebecca or Crystal, who knows what I might have done.

[84gunner]

Originally Posted by junior_cannibal

Absolutely right. For then to admit they are wrong, or to say the word sorry is harder than ask them to eat shit.
We are all human, to make mistakes is not uncommon. When we tell them is not to make them feel small or useless. It's usually just wanting to point out, avoid making them and all can just move on. However, they will think otherwise.
Enough said, most women are similar. Changing gf or spouse won't solve the issue.
Cest la vie.

Fully agree.

From my observation / experience, women in other Asian / SE Asian countries are not so strong-headed.

sg women have Women's Charter to protect them. Whenever they are unhappy, regardless reasonable or not, logical or not, can use the Women's Charter to "threaten"; eg, threaten to divorce, quote / remind the husband about how the Courts & Women's Charter will rule in their favour. Thinking about the losses, most of the men will lan-lan endure.

Many gals / women in other Asian countries I spoke to, they said it is not in their culture to handle r'ships & marriages in this way! And with Women's Charter to protect them, no wonder sg women are so strong-headed / wilful !

But if gangmen remove Women's Charter, u can almost be sure how much votes they are going to lose!

Therefore, wanna change gf or spouse, don' choose sg women, u'll be better off & a lot safer. As I said before, totally give up 1 country (sg), there's still so many single women in the remaining countries in Asia, u can't finish sleeping all of them in yr entire life! So why cling on to sg women? Their boobs / pussies are same as other countries' women. But they behave like their CBs are made of Gold, hahaha. My mum also laughed till her tears drop when I describe the CB made of Gold, hahaha.

See my signature.

[Asakura]

i like how there's finally someone now in the story that unreservedly smacking cold hard truth in the face

some of the ladies do time to time but can feel they hold back a little cos they like him.

[Shrouded]

I took forever to finish up my mocha frappe, and we only headed to the MRT for dinner when it was almost 730pm.

It was a somewhat good choice, considering the eatery was pretty empty, compared to the absurd queues at the hawker centre usually during lunch time, but it seemed like the staff were preparing to pack up and go home and didn't really appreciate late diners. Perhaps we should have checked the opening hours, we would have realised that it closed at 8pm.

We hurriedly ate our noodles so as not to be a burden to the staff there and then walked around.

J: Eh! Got Mr Coconut here! You want?

Me: Sure?

J: Haven't had it for so long! The one near my office is perpetually packed!

June went to place her order while I hung around. It was yet another f&b outlet that seemed to be wanting to pack up for the day. Perhaps we should have had dinner first then go for coffee.

She got our takeaway orders and we exited the MRT, heading up to the open area outside where there were some benches. We sat down and she passed me my cup. I took a sip.

Me: Wow. Is this 200% sugar or what?

J: Oh. 100%. I didn't know if you wanted it sweet or not.

Me: It's really sweet.

She exchanged cups with me.

J: Have mine then. 0%.

Me: It's ok. I won't die from a little sugar. Haha.

J: Isn't it too sweet?

Me: There's probably a reason why you chose 0% right?

J: No? I just prefer to taste to coconut rather than the sugar?

Me: Oh.

J: But it's fine la. You seem to be struggling with it.

Me: I rarely take sweet stuff. More of a savoury palate.

J: Please la. All those Ben & Jerry and Netflix with Jasmine. Don't tell me it's not sweet.

Me: Oh. I do it because she likes it.

J: You're too fucking submissive.

Me: Maybe.

J: Why do you let girls walk all over you? Girls like a manly man.

Me: Most girls?

J: Probably most girls. But you let so many of them walk all over you. Your self-esteem seems low.

Me: I guess it is.

J: Why?

Me: I don't really know?

J: Because of your overwhelming averageness?

Me: Haha. What a way to describe it.

J: It's true. You're average in every sense of the word. Even your cock is average.

Me: Gotta thank Nat for exposing me like that.

J: She seems to like exposing people. Didn't she expose your friend EoS to Jasmine too?

Me: She did.

J: Almost as big as you erect when he's soft. Interesting.

Me: You really like analysing my stories huh?

J: Why not? I think it takes courage to write something so personal, whether it's 100% true or not. And to continue for such a long time.

Me: I think it eases a burden from my mind when I write. EoS felt something like that when he started his story. It was what inspired me to write.

J: I see.

Me: When are you going to write your own?

J: Haha! Still thinking. I can't really write well. You want to help me?

Me: To write?

J: Why not?

Me: I don't know your story. If I write it, it won't have the personal effect.

J: I narrate and you write?

Me: Doesn't work that way la.

J: My story is very boring. My husband was my first. I only had 2 FWBs and 1 FB.

Me: Didn't I read somewhere about you being an escort for awhile?

J: Yeah. That's not counted. Was a bad time of my life and I needed a quick way to get cash to clear debts.

Me: Oh.

J: There's really nothing much you can write about that. It's the same story. Guy books me, guy pays, guy cums, guy leaves.

Me: Yeah. That sounds like a short story. Hahaha.

J: It's really not that interesting.

Me: I guess not.

J: But back to you. Low self esteem. Why?

Me: I really don't know. I just never felt that I was doing anything great or worthwhile my whole life.

J: Are you really bothered by your size?

Me: No? I think it's quite obvious that I can satisfy most women.

J: Maybe. But the way you describe it, makes it seem like you wish you were bigger.

Me: That's probably the dream of most average guys right? Attract the girl with physical attributes first.

J: Haha! I'm not a normal girl. I like bigger cocks because my first cock was already so big. Can't see myself being satisfied with anything less.

Me: Surely when you were an escort you've had numerous different cocks?

J: That's different. Even if I got a small one I had to act as though it was the biggest I've ever had in my life. It's all business. Not really for pleasure.

Me: So you're good at faking it?

J: Most girls can if they want to I think. There was one client. He's way smaller than you. I moaned as though he was a porn star. He was so aroused that he came quickly.

Me: Doesn't seem very fair. Haha.

J: They pay per shot. It's fair. Not my fault that they can't hold it in.

Me: Right…

J: But the difference between you and them is that while they're not all well-endowed, most of them have self-confidence. You on the other hand, seemed to be wrapped around the little finger of all the girls you're with.

Me: That's not true.

J: Only you'll know if it's true.

Me: Yeah.

J: So why did you really ask me out tonight?

Me: To chat? I didn't really feel like chatting with the other girls.

J: Don't they see me as a threat?

Me: You're not a threat. You're not interested in my small cock. Haha.

J: True. I'm not like Crystal who believes in sexual compatibility just because you got her wet.

Me: Just find the right buttons.

J: Oh, all my buttons are right, if the criteria is met.

Me: Seriously?

J: It's really my husband's fault. When we first had sex, he sort of forced it in. The pain was intense but it slowly became pleasure. Since then I've only really enjoyed the bigger cocks.

Me: All your FWBs were well-endowed?

J: Actually, the first wasn't really. Probably around your size. But he was a very good guy friend. Talked a lot. Counselled me. Stuff like that. My FB was my superior at work. Also rather average. But I fucked him mostly because I was angry with my then boyfriend.

Me: Ah. So you did have average cocks before.

J: Well, it isn't easy finding a large cock that comes with a nice person attached to it.

Me: Your husband is really accomodating.

J: He is. But sometimes I wonder if it's because he has no choice.

Me: What do you mean?

J: He proposed even before we were 21. Back then I don't know if it was because he was guilty for taking my virginity. Then the debts we had was due to him breaking bonds.

Me: He broke his army bond?

J: He broke 2 bonds. First was a teaching bond, he couldn't get into OCS during his NS, so he decided to become a teacher. Somehow along the way he decided he wanted to go back to the army so he signed on and became an officer. Then he went for special forces training, got injured, went to study again, went back to army, went for special forces training again, got injured again, then finally decided that enough was enough.

Me: Oh… yeah, injuries are horrible when you're a regular. Hope he has recovered.

J: I think he wants to sign on again. Haha. He sort of lost his sales job during Covid then was driving Gojek and Grab for awhile.

Me: So he's unemployed now?

J: Sort of. Doing part-time stuff.

Me: I don't know why but his story sounds incredibly familiar. Like I've heard of an officer in the formation my battalion was part of who went for special forces selection twice but got injured. Quite a legend.

J: Oh? Maybe it's my husband. Haha!

Me: Well I left service a long time ago.

J: What's so special about special forces anyway. We don't even fight any wars.

Me: That's not the point. And special forces technically do other things.

J: Don't tell me. I don't want to know. All I know it's his dream and he really wanted to go there.

I tried to recall the name of the officer from my brigade.

Me: Your husband's name is XXXX?

J: Oh shit. You really know him? You're infantry too?

Me: Not really. Formation and battalion are quite far apart. And I'm not infantry.

J: Oh. Interesting. What's your rank?

Me: Master Sergeant.

J: What's that? Not officer right?

Me: It's a specialist rank.

J: No idea what that is. I shall ask my husband if he knows you.

Me: Highly unlikely. I'm a small fry. Was only there for a while before I resigned.

J: He was some manpower or admin officer when he was injured. Maybe he knows you.

Me: Haha. Why does it matter if he knows me or not?

J: It doesn't. Just interesting that the world is so small.

Me: Your FWB also ex-regular right?

J: Yes?

Me: Does your husband know him?

J: Not that he said. But I heard them talking. Something about special forces and don't know what special unit that apparently they made a mediacorp drama about.

Me: Oh?

J: Yeah my FWB was supposedly from there.

Me: EoS is supposedly from that unit too.

J: That's really interesting.

Me: Is EoS your FWB?

J: Hahaha! How would I know? Never met him before. But please la, my FWB is still meeting me weekly. This EoS guy, the way you described him is like he's some monk. Can get stripped naked by girls and yet doesn't do anything.

I wondered just how small the world could be. It was getting late so we decided to leave. I offered to send her back and she agreed. The conversation continued in the car.

Me: You want to meet him?

J: Who? EoS? For what? To see if he's really my FWB?

Me: I guess.

J: Crazy. I know he's on the forum. But I don't know his username. I only came to the forum because he mentioned it and I was curious what was on it.

Me: Well, if it really is EoS, then I more or less can confirm my suspicions that he's actually the FWB of Crystal and Shirlyn.

J: Crazy. You might as well say he's the guy who went overseas with Jasmine too. Hahaha.

Me: That thought did cross my mind.

J: Goodness, you really need to do something about your self esteem issues. So what if he's fucking all of them? There's no big deal. At the end of the day, he's married, and he'll never be anything more to them than just a cock they use when they feel like it. You're single, technically available. You have the upper hand.

Me: What if they prefer him over me? You know… his size.. skill..

J: Looks like you already have it in your head that he's the guy. So let me ask you a simple question. If he's so great, why are they still even with you? It's pretty clear Shirlyn likes you. Jasmine I really can't tell. With Nat and Crystal you're just a cock they wanna use. They are married, in an open relationship of some sorts, you are really nothing to them. Just a cock. Maybe someone to hang out with. That's all. But to Shirlyn, and maybe even Jasmine, if you think they are into a bigger cock who's legally unavailable, then it's better you just stay single.

Me: Is your FWB just a cock to you?

J: Of course he is. But my relationship is more open and clear cut than yours. He's just a cock. But he's a cock I depend on. A cock I crave sometimes. A cock that makes me feel good and makes my husband jealous.

Me: Seriously.

J: Everytime I go home after meeting my FWB, my husband fucks me so hard it kind of makes me wish I didn't fuck my FWB cos it's gonna be hard going to work the next day. But it's amazing.

Me: How is he ok with it?

J: I don't know. He just is. Maybe you need to make them jealous. Haha.

Me: How?

J: Go fuck someone else la! Show them you're a man!

Me: I am a man.

J: A manly masculine man.

Me: I am-

J: Nope. You're not. You rarely take control. You don't show your dominant side.

Me: Well, sometimes being passive works I guess?

J: You're impossible. And I'm not the first to say that.

Me: Why would I want to sleep with someone else then announce it to them just to make them jealous?

J: That's just my suggestion. I've a feeling once they're jealous you'll see some progress in your relationship.

Me: What if I like fucking the other girl so much? And I fall for her. Then what?

J: God. Somebody should just put you out of your misery.

Me: I'm over thinking aren't I?

J: Yes. So to make it simple, find someone who cannot be in a relationship with you. Like Nat or Crystal. Because they're married and legally bound to the piece of paper.

Me: That won't work. They know Nat and Crystal.

J: I said like Nat or Crystal. Not Nat or Crystal.

Me: Ah, so a married woman?

J: Wow. You're slow.

Me: You're a married woman.

J: What the fuck. No.

Me: You needed something small for your ass right?

J: Hahahahaha. That seriously can't be your best pick up line.

Me: Erm. Would you like your eggs sunny side up, scrambled or fertilized?

J: That's not even original.

Me: Is there a mirror in your pants? I can see myself in them.

J: Hahahahaha! Please stop. I'm trying very hard not to cringe while laughing and my tummy hurts.

Me: Bad noodles?

J: No. I'm laughing too hard at your lameness.

We reached her drop off point.

J: Thanks for the ride. Hope you'll think about what I said.

Me: You wanna ride something else?

J: Hahaha. Call me when you've added one or two inches.

Me: You disabled telegram calls.

J: Text me then! Or email! Hahaha!

Me: Sure.

J: Ok you're seriously fun to be with. And you really can make me laugh.

Me: So you're lowering your standards?

J: Fat chance. But I wish you all the best. I don't mind hanging out again next time. And if I wasn't in pants today, maybe…

Me: Maybe what?

J: Maybe I'd tease you a little bit. Hahaha. Good night Mark.

Me: Good night June.

I watched as she walked to her lift lobby and entered the lift before I headed home.

[junior_cannibal]

As if your current r/s not complicated enough, you are flirting verbally with June.
While you said you wanted to be faithful to Jasmine, you are doing something else.
The funny thing is, there are other ready pussy you avoided, yet going for one that finds your little Joe too small. 人的确都是比较犯贱的，Lol.

[jamestan1]

I think u just mind u have a small dick, or small compared to the other two guys. But it's u who intro them to ur girls. Can't really fault them for loving or mentioning it.

I had a friend who's dick is small according to one of his ex. We bought him an extension for his bday. He tried it once on his wife and she loves it. But he kinda regretted using it because the wife seem addicted to it.

Guys tend to think their tools are huge, but when alot of girls, or even one girl, says it's average, their ego suddenly take a hit. I don't think i have a big dick, even tho my FWB keeps saying i do, saying that's the biggest she had beside an angmoh she hooked up with.

I think what u have over Darren is that u give full service everytime u had sex with them. That's love-making. For Darren, it's just sex.